Artist Interview: Kayle Karbowski

July 18, 2018 by Ben Miller in Interviews

You lie your body down. Your close your eyes. Your consciousness surrenders itself to the realm of sleep. The walls of rationality, routine, and habit through which you perceive your daily life temporarily fall aside. Your mind is allowed to give you dreams that show you all of the feelings, meat, and urges that are too strange, too unfamiliar, or too (seemingly) illogical to be seen in the light of day while you are awake and trying to make sense of the world. They show you that you are more than the small sliver of identity you know throughout most of your waking life.

This is how I experience the work of artist Kayle Karbowski. It strips away the various mental filters that typically limit my perception of life, and it catalyzes a fuller, deeper, more vibrant experience of myself. When I was delving into her work to prepare this interview, I looked at her site and her videos for over an hour. Afterward, when I took off my headphones and turned the lights back on, I felt like I was exiting a mind-warping wormhole, coming out the other end with different vision. I was looking at the same familiar body that I refer to as "me", sitting in the same apartment that I see every day, but my felt sense of myself and the forms around me had been entirely altered–disoriented and re-oriented by the phenomena of Kayle's art. Pink body hair. Oracular 8 balls. The Void. The unknowable. Mazes. Cryptic forms of ambiguous origins.

You can find her work on her site (kaylekarbowski.com) and on her Vimeo page (vimeo.com/kaylekarbowski/) and you can read her thoughts about her work below.

BEN JON MILLER: Can you recall and describe a work which, while you were making it, you didn’t fully understand? In hindsight, what do you think led you to make that piece?

KAYLE KARBOWSKI: I mean, I’d say that is essentially the case for everything that I make– the things that I end up liking/showing people, at least. I think of making art as a way of exploring an idea/imagery etc. and that’s why I make things in the first place. Most of the things I make start with a singular object or interaction or thought that I’m fascinated by, like, almost to the point of obsession. The moon, a magic 8 ball, the 3D maze Windows ‘98 screensaver, a banana peel, the color beige, black holes, trying to merge the sound of hands and arms rubbing against each other with the sound of waves of water to an indistinguishable point– these are all examples of things that I at first had a really surface level or simplistic fascination with– that I basically just wanted to make a cool image or vignette with– turned into the work that I show the world. I work through my interest in the thing, continuing to build upon it, abstract it, try to complicate it, to the point that I can complicate and build up my understanding of the thing or idea. So ultimately what people end up seeing is how this relationship manifests.

Kayle Karbowski, From Inside a Beehive and Back Again, 2015

This is easiest for me to see/explain through my video work. I think of my videos much more of a maze rather than a line– simply put, they’re non-linear. But they are non-linear because they are trying to provide an experience–a feeling–not tell a story or make a point. The experience from A (0:00, the beginning of the video) to B (x:xx, the end of the video) is meant to jump around within your mental space, much like a memory or a dream. The participant (viewer, audience…) is encouraged (and expected) to freely associate between images, colors, interactions, etc. and come to their own terms with them. If you want to know what my work is about, it’s about the relationship I’ve built with my subjects–how they relate to my past, present, future. And it’s meant for you to explore yours. And that I think is a statement in itself, relating to the idea that “the personal is political”... which is to say that by me (or you) sharing my (or your) experience we may be able to find that we may have more in common than we think. That everything is filtered through our perception of our reality… both in the socio/political sense of privilege, visibility and power in our society as well as a more metaphysical sense of who/what we are in relation to the other things around us.

B: When I see your work, a few of pieces seemed suggestive of what some folks call The Void. This might just be a projection of my own fascination with that term and all that it implies, but I am curious - What does The Void mean to you? What role has it played in your art?

“I think it’s really important for us as a species to become comfortable with the idea of the unknown/unknowable. Relish in it. Celebrate it.”

K: A hole, an abyss, something we cannot access, mystery, the deepest depths, the unknown, a tunnel, a path to somewhere else, a black/opaque window, the color black, endlessness, sublime, that which we cannot define, a blank spot, unknowable. That’s a list of what I think of when I think of “The Void” and it sends shivers down my spine and I love it.

A void in thinking or a concept–[I am] embracing that in the way that I work. Essentially using that as the basis of the work, creating a brain map around the concept until I have a thing that I want to call art. That’s again why I think of my work as maze-like and also why I still haven’t quite figured out how to simplify my ideas into a few words for a specific piece of mine. I’m coming at it from so many different angles and continue to find more even after I call the piece “done”.

I think it’s really important for us as a species to become comfortable with the idea of the unknown/unknowable. Relish in it. Celebrate it. It’s therapeutic in a very real way for me–to take something I don’t know or don’t understand and explore it... but then at the end saying there’s no definitive answer for it anyways. It’s not nihilism, I’m not saying there’s no point to anything. I’m just saying I don’t think Point B really exists. Or if it does, there’s also a Point C, Point D, Point R2-7000…

Kayle Karbowski, Maybe Holding a Void is More Powerful Than We Think, 2016

B: When I think of my relation to the art I’ve made and when I observe others’ relation to their own art, it often seems that people create forms or experiences that their psyche needs or craves. The art we give birth to somehow allows us to perceive and manipulate phenomena that reflect, benefit, or challenge our sense of being. Conscious and unconscious aspects of ourselves, internal tendencies and wishes–these psychological sinews come through the work and give us a chance to work with them. It’s almost as if the work is an independent entity that comes through the creator’s mind, heart, or what have you and delivers the work to them. If you could play a thought-game with me and imagine your work in this way, what does your work give to you? What do you imagine this hypothetical entity wants to give you through your work? How have the contents of its givings influenced your perspective and your life?

K: I suppose this is the way in which I think about my work–that I’m a receiver or a medium of some sort… or actually that I’m a synthesizer… is there a difference between a medium and a synthesizer? The difference is that a medium somewhat suggests that there’s minimal filtering happening. Such as, air is a medium for sound waves. Air’s existence gives sound waves particles to travel between and through. The things that make up the particles that make up air (air being the thing humans breathe on the planet Earth) affect the waves differently than they would through different air, or no air at all. I’m more like the particles or a specific particle. I’m the thing or have the thing that makes the particle behave a certain way. I’m a filter that changes the composition of the particle or many particles into new or altered ones as opposed to a vessel to take a particle from one place to another. My mind is the hypothetical entity. I don’t know if it’s my subconscious or unconscious or conscious self (insert existential crisis here)… probably a combination of all three. Meant to alter or question my understanding of my past, present and future. Again, using myself as a template or platform for others to reflect on my reflections and compare/relate/interpret their understanding of themselves/others through it.

Giving me the acceptance and freedom that comes with a belief that our purpose as humans is to fuck around with ideas and information until we have new ones. That’s like, the scientific understanding. As Kurt Vonnegut says “we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.” Then there’s the spiritual/moral/humanistic (why does this have to be separate from “scientific”?) reality that we should enjoy the time we have “here” (being conscious? sentient?) and that we should help others have the opportunity to do so, too. But how do we best do that? I’m not particularly answering that last one with my work. I very much so believe in activism and it’s a very important part of my life, but I’m not overtly trying to solve or point to specific issues. I’m more interested in being political through form than through language.

B: I think we are each specifically attracted to that which helps us learn about ourselves and the world. This could be an attraction to the color blue, the moon, a particular field of work, a sport, shoes, a person, anything at all. I believe you’re a fan of Twin Peaks. What is it about that show that pulls you in? Where does it take you?

K: I fucking love David Lynch. There, okay, I said it. Some may call me a cliché. I don’t frickin’ care. Part of why I love him in particular is that he is somewhat of a mainstream director. Twin Peaks was a way for David Lynch to seep into American culture without the mainstream really knowing, like a fucked up but not sociopathic Andy Warhol. It was on the air, on ABC on Sunday nights in 1990-1991 AD (it aired during Aries season). I’ve read (although I haven’t found concrete evidence of this in the 5 minutes I spent on Google) that it was one of the top-rated shows in the US the year of 1990 AD. So among Roseanne, Full House, Cheers, Murder She Wrote, Unsolved Mysteries and America’s Funniest Home Videos sits the dreams of David Lynch (and Mark Frost) via Twin Peaks. The structure of the show makes it a soap opera-esque mystery drama, yet the content of it goes from high schoolers doing drugs and getting themselves in trouble soon turns into a story about the spiritual/psychological happenings in a small town. My experience with Twin Peaks has led me to see the show as commentary, or another lens through which to view small towns and the suburban, as well as the Hollywood-ized mentality around tragedy and trauma that is actually pretty toxic.

Although I didn’t grow up in a small town like Twin Peaks, I grew up in the white-picket fence suburbs of Chicago. Like, John Hughes films are real and I don’t know if it’s his interpretation of the suburbs of Chicago or if the suburbs adapted to be as much like John Hughes films as they could. I suppose I just really want to see David Lynch’s adaption of “Sixteen Candles”.

B: How does the study of astrology affect your awareness of yourself, others, and the world?

Kayle Karbowski, You Have To Want It, 2017

K: At a young age someone informed me I was a Scorpio, “the most evil sign of the zodiac”. As a child that was known for bossing around my friends and seemingly born with an interest in horror films, it’s needless to say I was immediately intrigued. True to my Scorpio nature (and now that I know more about astrology, I’ll blame it on my Aquarius Moon and Mercury/Venus in Sagittarius as well), I had to find the other side of Scorpios. The truth. There’s no way I was destined to be a bad person, right?

Once I learned the basics of the 12 signs, my study of astrology ebbed and flowed throughout the rest of my life, seemingly appearing back at the front of my mind in times of major identity crisis. Fast forward a few years and I’m in art school and adulthood hits, there’s a bunch of new people to get to know and critical thinking becomes the focus of my academic studies. As I began doing friends’ birth charts and was faced with the question over and over again, “so what does that mean about me?” I realized that my interest in astrology wasn’t about learning my star-aligned destiny, it was [about learning] a possible destiny. Being a Scorpio didn’t mean that I was a sex-obsessed, secretive, and vindictive person. Having my Moon in Aquarius didn’t mean I was doomed to forever over-rationalize my feelings away. Instead, my birth chart provided me a mirror to see myself in. A mirror I could reach into and reorganize the pieces until they felt right. I could shape my past, present, and future into who I wanted to be, not who I had to be.

“My birth chart provided me a mirror to see myself in. A mirror I could reach into and reorganize the pieces until they felt right. I could shape my past, present, and future into who I wanted to be, not who I had to be. ”

As with everything in the occult, the validity astrology holds in our physical plane isn’t really what matters. It’s what it does in our minds, in our guts, in our hearts. How do we see ourselves as part of the larger whole of society? How do we see ourselves when we’re alone with ourselves?

B: How has your creative practice altered or added to your experience of life?

K: I suppose it’s somewhat cheesy to say, but my creative practice is my life. Not in the way where I’m like, “Oh yeah, I’m always in the studio experimenting with material and making new work,” but in the way that I don’t see a line between the work I make and the rest of my life. Creativity in general is such an odd concept to me, and maybe that’s just part of my privilege of having it. I personally don’t really even think of myself as that much of a “creative” person. I’ve always thought of myself more as a receiver of sorts. I take information in, I internalize it (whether it be in a conscious or subconscious way… or anywhere in between), and I give it form. So I guess maybe it hasn’t really added or altered much, just given my way of operating in the world a name.

What helps you maintain your connection to creative ideas and inspiration? This could be a habit, an intention or motive, a material, a place, a person, a book, or anything else.

My constant internal struggle over escapism and activism, student debt, and my insatiable need to prove to everyone who doubted my ability to make a life out of art wrong. :)

But really… I’d say my tarot practice, my dreams, consuming really bad and really good speculative fiction and all of it in between, listening to/watching music videos of late 90’s to early 00’s pop. I have a deep drive that I have a hard time putting words to… but I think I really just want to make my fantasy into a physical reality… and that maybe if I can bring my fantasies to life I have the power to change more. That’s the thought that always brings me back to making.

B: What kind of experiences would you like audiences to have through your work? This could be broadly open-ended or specifically intentioned.

K: I once heard another video artist say something like, “being political through form”, and that’s how I see my approach to how I want people to experience my work. I purposefully make things in a meandering way and I don’t really have any desire to be didactic. I show you images, textures, words, symbols, interactions that I have arranged in a certain way according to how I feel and think about them but I don’t really care if you feel the same way. Our experiences in life will give them different meanings. Although, I often find that when I talk to people about my work, they relate to it in one way or another. Semiotics are cool.

Are there any challenging aspects of your creative practice (or your life) that you enjoy or appreciate, despite the difficulty? How do you respond to those challenges when they arise?

I don’t want to say I’m a masochist, but I do think that difficulties are what drive me to do what I do. I respond by making. Like, I think everything is difficult and if something isn’t, I tend to always find a way to make things difficult or complex just so I can find a pathway through it. I suppose a much less dramatic way to say that is that I really love to solve puzzles… even if they do involve some discomfort.

B: Have you had any life experiences that impacted or shifted your approach to art-making? If so, could you describe one of them and share how it affected you?

K: I think art school really did a number on me. After graduating, I immediately felt like I had changed myself in order to fit as nicely into academia as I could… (which really wasn’t that well) but I was great at intellectualizing the shit out of something so it sounded smart instead of me whining about something I didn’t like. I left art school feeling like it was one way or the other and that if I wanted to make work about “feeling” or “intuition” it was not thoughtful (oh my god was that the patriarchy at work in art school!?)

Kayle Karbowski, how to access the interdimensional portal in your neighborhood — Kayle Karbowski, *how to access the interdimensional portal in your neighborhood*

Anyways, I’ve spent a lot of my time post-grad dissecting that feeling, taking what I want and forcibly forgetting what I don’t. And by saying this I don’t mean to shit on art school. I don’t think I would have learned the critical thinking that has led me to this perspective if I hadn’t gone, and I quite honestly think what I went/am going through is largely the point of it. At the end of it all, my post-grad angst has really shown me what I value in my own work and the art around me. But who am I kidding, I’ve always been angsty and forever will be. I suppose that’s just how I learn.

B: Is there a website or link you'd like to give people to contact you or find your work?

K: http://kaylekarbowski.com/
Or come find me on Instagram @zenmaster_69. I drink lots of Evian :)

[You can also find a lot of her videos on her Vimeo page (https://vimeo.com/kaylekarbowski/)]

On my blog, you can find writings on art and alchemical thinking, interviews about creativity, psychologically-oriented reflections on tarot, and more. You can check out past posts in the categorized list below. You can also find my art, music, and Lila Radio, an auditory series of improvised, absurdist, psychedelic (mind-manifesting) storytelling.

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Art
- Dec 19, 2016 Wakey Wakey, Inner Kiddo
- Dec 28, 2016 How to Make Magical Oranges
- Aug 17, 2017 Put the Potatoes on Your Face
- Sep 14, 2017 Art is a Portal
- Dec 1, 2017 Why the Tutu?
- Apr 3, 2018 Public Alchemy: Notes on Street Performance
- Jun 22, 2018 The Freedom and Fear of Being Yourself (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Jul 2, 2018 About the Folks Who Think You Stink (Notes on Performance and Life)
Interviews
- Feb 21, 2018 Artist Interview: Samantha Blumenfeld
- Mar 1, 2018 Artist Interview: Lawrence Blackman
- Apr 23, 2018 Interview: Yogi Ron Katwijk
- Jun 4, 2018 Artist Interview: Sally Nicholson
- Jul 18, 2018 Artist Interview: Kayle Karbowski
Magical Thinking
- Dec 28, 2016 How to Make Magical Oranges
- Jan 15, 2017 Following Fear
- Feb 19, 2017 Why Does Heartache Happen?
- Jul 6, 2017 Nerves and Tutus
- Aug 7, 2017 Three Reasons to Destroy Yourself (Or Not)
- Sep 14, 2017 Art is a Portal
- Dec 1, 2017 Why the Tutu?
- Jan 5, 2018 Chaos' Playground: Finding Gold in the Shitstorm
- Apr 3, 2018 Public Alchemy: Notes on Street Performance
- Apr 16, 2018 Questions for Limitations
- Jun 22, 2018 The Freedom and Fear of Being Yourself (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Jul 2, 2018 About the Folks Who Think You Stink (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Aug 23, 2018 Melting a Snowball of Misery
- Jun 21, 2019 White Peacocks, Constipation, and Emotional Liberation
- Aug 5, 2019 Celebrating Your Misery
- Dec 4, 2020 The Healing Voice: Wounds, Addiction, and Purgation
- May 18, 2023 Magick is a Sentient Entity: Using the Imagination to Co-Create with Magick
- Jun 21, 2023 Magick for Reshaping Life and Transmuting Trauma
Tarot
- Aug 26, 2017 Tarot as a Tool for Reality Construction
- Feb 28, 2018 Today's Tarot: The World is in the Seed
- Jun 27, 2019 Today's Tarot: Snot, Beauty, and Tea for Pain
- Aug 12, 2019 Today's Tarot: The Moon of Self-Loathing
- Aug 13, 2019 Today's Tarot: The Golden Devils Inside You
- Aug 18, 2019 Today's Tarot: Shifting Pain by Surrendering to It
- Aug 25, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #1: Why is the Present Moment So Much All the Time?
- Sep 3, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #2: Do abusers know they're being abusive, or is that just their sense of reality?
- Sep 25, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #3: Why can't I find more hours in a day?
- Oct 11, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #4: How long will it be until I have a new job?
- Oct 24, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #5: Why does my skin crawl with wonder and fascination as such important relationships in my life are connected by the eyes?

Artist Interview: Sally Nicholson

June 04, 2018 by Ben Miller in Interviews

Under the noise of our scurrying minds, there's a place of subconscious viscera. It's that subterranean place inside of us that gives birth to dreams, presenting to us the lesser seen aspects of our own being. The work of artist Sally Nicholson has, for me, the effect of puncturing the membrane that buffers us from the subconscious, so that its contents--its snails, storms, and sounds--are allowed to seep out and be seen, heard, and intensely felt. In the words below, she talks about her work.

Questions:
Dreams are mentioned or alluded to in some of your work. What influence do your dreams have on your life and your art?

As an introduction,
I will give you a key to understand some of the language I may use on this exploration:

She/Her: I use the name “She” or “Her” for the one I see in my dreams. Her only duty is to survive the hardships that a sleeping brain makes you succumb to.

Me: The one who sleeps. I am simply a witness to the challenges I put Her through. Sometimes I consider myself a voyeur once in this situation.

The Snowglobe: The stage. It is what contains the setting of all my dreams, the props, events, challenges that She faces and I watch her go through.

How do you prove a dream?
You don’t.
You recreate it.
From a vulnerable memory your sleeping mind built JUST for you.
A gift.

I often have suffocating dreams that I use as my kindling to produce. I feel I must pay my respects to these dreams by trying to entertain them the best I can. They are overpowering, governing, overwhelming, scary, hurtful. Subconscious me went through the motions to overcome them.
Sometimes she doesn’t even overcome them.

Sometimes she simply waits for me to wake up, and that dream to finally end.
She feels every twitch and punch of fear and confusion that I PUT HER THROUGH.

Because
She is me and I owe Her
for being resilient.
And loyal.

When you set out to do a performance, do you have a pre-chosen intention or experience that you want to communicate? Or is it more of an exploration of something unknown? Or a mixture of the two? Or something else entirely?

(The final works of (mine) that you watch with me)
(with me)
(hear)
(with)
(me)
(lick with me)

(They are tributes.)

What helps you maintain your connection to creative ideas and inspiration? This could be a habit, an intention or motive, a material, a place, a person, a book, or anything else.

I have always been a reader. Shakespeare, the epic Greek poems & tragedies, classic literature all for example, really get me going...and these are all equal forms of stimulus for my studio practice.

Writing is how I sketch.
Rarely do I draw.
I have always considered myself a collector of language. Holding onto phrases, words, intentions that have leached onto my memory bank. As of the past year or so, I have been accompanying most of my videos, sculptures, performance and audio pieces with a poem. I see it as the piece’s own voice.
I am a strong believer that poetry is a noise you must hear, and each piece of mine has to have enough of an appetite to be able to SCREAM.

How does your sense of self change while you are performing?

The sense of self becomes ooey-gooey, sticky, sappy.
I enter into a passionate, full-hearted maternal figure vortex, who wants to honor Her the best I can. Along with that, I become much more selfish than I ever am on the day-to-day.

I say selfish because: these gifts (dream memories) are mine. And they are fragile.
Although they aren’t always friendly gifts, they ARE gifts that were only built for me.
I don’t want to share with you,
I don’t want help recreating them,
because that would be cheating.

Are there any projects you’re working on now, or would like to work on in the future, that are exciting or stimulating you? Why are you drawn to it and where do you want to go with it?

It is pretty separated from my personal practice currently, but I am co-partnering in an art space endearingly named Gluon Gallery. Together, Joe Acri and I are aiming to create an easily accessible platform with the objective of supporting and challenging young, budding artists.

This mission has been one of importance my entire undergrad career.
Of course it is noticeable; the lack of shows and/or events in our community that take on a wide array of undergrad students.
Those in this malleable stage of learning about their practices are the ones that we need to keep pushing & supporting.

In some of the glimpses I’ve caught of your work online, it feels like the surface layer of reality’s skin is being peeled away and the contents beneath are then seen or manipulated. In these works, it felt like I was experiencing a facet of life that is intensely, viscerally real, yet which is not often perceived. It is similar to the way dreams will bring my attention to aspects of myself or life that I don’t always notice. For me, some of your work functions as a catalyst that triggers this shift of perception. Perhaps this is all my own projection, but does any of this relate to your intentions for or experience of your art?

What a curious question, and read of my work.

Isn’t that what a dream is, in a way? When you sleep, that subconscious of yours is ruthless and it really pays attention. Mine does at least.

Asleep.

Reality’s skin (your skin) owns nothing but a metaphorical weight that is very easily torn away from your metaphorical bones. ~~You're dreaming, who knows if you have bones, but we can just assume you do.~~ And once that weight is torn away you are on full blast: muscle, mucus, arteries, capillaries, secrets, intimacies, obsessions are all fair game to become the foundation of the screening room that is your sleeping brain.

Am I in control of the screening room? No. It is more powerful than I am. I am secondary, I am an audience in awe. It is pure, and my current fascination.

Awake.

I think often about how our nights would likely be quieter and our sleep more serene if we didn’t dream so much. But our minds would not be as rich nor our brains as nimble nor our wishes so often fulfilled (and fears excavated.)

This may sometimes wear you out, but you will never be bored. My bidding ultimately is to pay tribute to the ongoings inside of the Snowglobe, but also to let them show, guide, inspire both me, and Her.

If you want to let your mind be palpably shifted and transported, listen to this audio piece by Sally Nicholson with headphones on and eyes closed. It is just five minutes long and is subtly impactful if you let yourself sink into it.

links

@salspal_ - Sally Nicholson's Instagram
Gluon Gallery - An art gallery in Milwaukee, WI USA, co-founded by Sally Nicholson and Joe Acri

subscribe via rss

Art
- Dec 19, 2016 Wakey Wakey, Inner Kiddo
- Dec 28, 2016 How to Make Magical Oranges
- Aug 17, 2017 Put the Potatoes on Your Face
- Sep 14, 2017 Art is a Portal
- Dec 1, 2017 Why the Tutu?
- Apr 3, 2018 Public Alchemy: Notes on Street Performance
- Jun 22, 2018 The Freedom and Fear of Being Yourself (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Jul 2, 2018 About the Folks Who Think You Stink (Notes on Performance and Life)
Interviews
- Feb 21, 2018 Artist Interview: Samantha Blumenfeld
- Mar 1, 2018 Artist Interview: Lawrence Blackman
- Apr 23, 2018 Interview: Yogi Ron Katwijk
- Jun 4, 2018 Artist Interview: Sally Nicholson
- Jul 18, 2018 Artist Interview: Kayle Karbowski
Magical Thinking
- Dec 28, 2016 How to Make Magical Oranges
- Jan 15, 2017 Following Fear
- Feb 19, 2017 Why Does Heartache Happen?
- Jul 6, 2017 Nerves and Tutus
- Aug 7, 2017 Three Reasons to Destroy Yourself (Or Not)
- Sep 14, 2017 Art is a Portal
- Dec 1, 2017 Why the Tutu?
- Jan 5, 2018 Chaos' Playground: Finding Gold in the Shitstorm
- Apr 3, 2018 Public Alchemy: Notes on Street Performance
- Apr 16, 2018 Questions for Limitations
- Jun 22, 2018 The Freedom and Fear of Being Yourself (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Jul 2, 2018 About the Folks Who Think You Stink (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Aug 23, 2018 Melting a Snowball of Misery
- Jun 21, 2019 White Peacocks, Constipation, and Emotional Liberation
- Aug 5, 2019 Celebrating Your Misery
- Dec 4, 2020 The Healing Voice: Wounds, Addiction, and Purgation
- May 18, 2023 Magick is a Sentient Entity: Using the Imagination to Co-Create with Magick
- Jun 21, 2023 Magick for Reshaping Life and Transmuting Trauma
Tarot
- Aug 26, 2017 Tarot as a Tool for Reality Construction
- Feb 28, 2018 Today's Tarot: The World is in the Seed
- Jun 27, 2019 Today's Tarot: Snot, Beauty, and Tea for Pain
- Aug 12, 2019 Today's Tarot: The Moon of Self-Loathing
- Aug 13, 2019 Today's Tarot: The Golden Devils Inside You
- Aug 18, 2019 Today's Tarot: Shifting Pain by Surrendering to It
- Aug 25, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #1: Why is the Present Moment So Much All the Time?
- Sep 3, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #2: Do abusers know they're being abusive, or is that just their sense of reality?
- Sep 25, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #3: Why can't I find more hours in a day?
- Oct 11, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #4: How long will it be until I have a new job?
- Oct 24, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #5: Why does my skin crawl with wonder and fascination as such important relationships in my life are connected by the eyes?

Interview: Yogi Ron Katwijk

April 23, 2018 by Ben Miller in Interviews

Today's interview is with Yoga teacher Ron Katwijk. One of the primary tenets of yoga philosophy is that everything is energy. Your thoughts. Your feelings. Your pet. That banana you ate last Tuesday. Your toenails. Your dreams. Your grandma. Babies. Beethoven and Britney Spears. Air and stones. Trees and fire. Everything.

These days, with new age aphorisms gushing throughout the worldwide pool of information, the phrase "everything is energy" might easily fall into the mish-mashed abyss. It might be swiftly swept aside as a mystical aphorism that sounds nice but has little application to all of us folks leaping over the hurtles of the material plane. This is not so!

Why?

As humans, we experience the energy that we are through our body, thoughts, and emotions. If our energy is low, dull, or tense, we will feel weak, lethargic, depressed, or angry. If our energy is bright and full, we will feel strong, inspired, joyful, peaceful, or loving.

Everything we do affects our energetic state. The direction of our moment-to-moment awareness influences the state of our energy and that of our surroundings. Yoga is a tool for increasing the amount of energy we have, then harmonizing and refining its quality.

For me, yoga (which includes the positions, philosophy, and meditation) has been a lifeline that has helped me crawl out of my darker times and reinforce my connection with the emotional states of love, inspiration, and playfulness. The more I access those states, the more naturally everything else falls into place. It has helped me find the lessons in my miseries. It has given me the means to uplift myself so that I can wake up happy each day, rather than wake up dreading life as a burdensome drudgery as I used to.

Ron Katwijk is the founder of Magic Pond Yoga School in Seoul. Ron moved from the Netherlands to South Korea over twenty years ago and has since been teaching yoga there for a couple decades. I met Ron when I took his yoga course at Magic Pond a few years ago. In his approach, yoga is presented as a practical tool that can be tested and used to add more harmony and purpose to daily life. These questions share a glimpse into his perspective on yoga philosophy and how it applies to the everyday person trying to steer their flesh bag and balls of energy through this life.

Ben Jon Miller: If someone comes to you and says, “Ron! There is violence everywhere! The world is dying! Humanity is going down the toilet!”, how would you respond?

Ron Katwijk: We live in a world of duality, of good and bad. If your energy is down your thought patterns are down as well, meaning that you have tendencies to think negatively, to be pessimistic. Your eyes are drawn [downward] and all you can see is everything that is wrong in the world. When your energy has tendencies to be on higher levels of consciousness and you are vital in your ways, alive, you also have a tendency to be more positive and optimistic. Your eyes are drawn towards everything that is right in the world. You understand and don't deny that there is lots of bad and wrong in the world, but you acknowledge/understand that that is only human nature. You see that there is an opposing force, an enlightened force at work in the world that constantly tries to correct what is wrong. You also see that drawbacks in life, personal as well as global, are necessary to wake us up so that we realize again what it is all really about in life. When things go too well the comfort rocks us asleep and we take things for granted. Things go wrong because of that, so for conscious human beings that is a wakeup call to stay alert and stay engaged.

“You also see that drawbacks in life, personal as well as global, are necessary to wake us up so that we realize again what it is all really about in life. When things go too well the comfort rocks us asleep and we take things for granted. Things go wrong because of that, so for conscious human beings that is a wakeup call to stay alert and stay engaged.”

B: When talking about yoga philosophy, you often mentioned that you - and anyone else - can find happiness when you start to “be yourself”. Could you say more of what that means to you? And what can make it challenging for someone to “be themselves”?

R: Human beings have a tendency to identify with images sprouting from fantasy. Especially in the time we live in, we are bombarded by the media with such images. It is a human characteristic, especially when most of our energy is in the lower 3 chakras, to identify with created images, resulting in true disconnect with our real self. This disconnect is the cause of many if not most of the mental/psychological problems we find in societies around the world. The disconnect leads to depression, lack of happiness and fulfillment in life. The only way back to happiness and finding purpose in life again is to "just be your Self" again, whatever that may be. From there you start to develop in a very real way and you truly manifest what is deeply embedded inside you, your true characteristics, which is something most people simply have no idea of as they are drowning in the mist of their identifications.

What can make it challenging to be yourself is the fact that being yourself is not what you are taught in school and it is not what your government (generally) wants from you. Being yourself unconditionally means doing what you want and what you feel regardless of what others think about that. It means that you have to stick out your head and make yourself vulnerable. It requires courage, lots of courage, but also lots of patience and perseverance and a deep belief that you will get where you want to be in life.

B: In yoga philosophy and in your class, there is a lot of mention of “opening the heart”. Could you describe, in practical, everyday terms, what it means to open the heart?

R: A human being consists out of energy balls (chakras) that contain various levels of our consciousness. The lowest 3 of those balls contain our lower emotions and desires which are designed to help us survive. The 4th and 5th chakra contain higher emotions and desires which are designed to express ourselves. The 6th chakra contains thought but also the possibility of the 3rd eye, which means deeper insight and understanding. The 7th chakra contains all of the higher characteristics a human being, in the right balance of circumstances, can manifest: wisdom, vision, truth, justice, intuition.

As a result of forces in the universe energy has a tendency to condense. In the higher chakras energy is lighter and less dense than in the lower chakras. Uncontrolled condensation of energy therefore leads to human beings manifesting at the lower levels of consciousness (below the diaphragm) in the 3 chakras that contain lower emotions, desires and instincts. When we take control of this process we counter the condensation process, leading to rising energy and the opening of the 4th chakra, which is the heart. Opening of the heart can be felt by increasing sensitivity, consciousness (especially of your fellow beings, humans and animals alike), and we naturally become compassionate and empathic. So opening of the heart truly happens and it has real transformation as a result.

B: As a continuation of the previous question: In your life, what personal obstacles made it challenging to open your heart? And conversely, what has helped you to open your heart over the years?

“There is the power/magic of wishing. My life is a chain of fulfilled wishes. Don’t get me wrong, in between those fulfillments are all the failures. But the failures each time confirm that... you must be patient, believe (in yourself and the higher powers), stick to your values and principles, regardless. ”

R: When we find ourselves in unstable, uncertain, unsafe circumstances our energy is pulled down to below the diaphragm in order to allow us to survive. As a result, energy cannot rise up and open the heart. To help open the heart we need stability, certainty and safety. To establish those elements we start by re-evaluating our lives to figure out what we really want and where we want to go. We need to be our true selves to start with. Furthermore, it is very important to build daily routine and as much calm as possible in life to establish the right circumstances. If you look at it, this is exactly what temples, institutes of learning, hospitals (mental and physical alike) [are for], but you also find this pursuit in prisons that have a humane starting point to rehabilitate the criminal that derailed (i.e. lost stability and safety in their life, leading to acts of survival that ended them up in the justice system).

B: There is the theory that knowledge is only useful if and when it is applied. One aspect of your class that I found to be significantly useful and interesting was that you would not only explain the tenets of yoga philosophy, but you would also describe stories from your life in which you applied those principles to specific instances. In that light, could you describe a recent or current obstacle? How are you approaching it from a creative, constructive standpoint?

R: There is the power/magic of wishing. My life is a chain of fulfilled wishes. Don't get me wrong, in between those fulfillments are all the failures. But the failures each time confirm that Yoga philosophy is correct, that you must be patient, believe (in yourself and the higher powers), stick to your values and principles, regardless. I started teaching Yoga 21 years ago as a freelancer with rich and famous people. Because of my deep wish to grow, I left that behind by settling in my own studio and spending all my time developing materials and focusing on real yoga, as opposed to exercise classes. I had to close the studio after 5 years because I couldn't manage it anymore and was then recruited to manage a yoga program in one of the biggest fitness centers in Korea. That gave me another 9 years of stability to further develop. It couldn't last and it was very scary. I ended up in another gym for 14 months and it didn't work out, followed by 7 months with the Korean Yoga Federation which also didn't work out. The misery I experienced taught me to not be afraid anymore as a lone stranger running a business in a foreign land with a difficult language and culture, whatever happens. So I settled down, renting a studio by the hour to keep my courses going in the weekends. I've never felt so relieved when I became independent again. My wish the past couple of years has been to be among the rich and famous again, not because they are rich and famous, but because I am free, independent, and it gives huge opportunities to spread real Yoga on a much larger scale since they are very well connected and all want to be part of and at the front of the new revolution, which at this moment is meditation and real yoga (I have for more than 20 years stuck to the belief that, in spite of the total distortion of yoga for commercial purpose, Magic Pond Yoga has the future ^^). In the past months I have been approached and started working with the biggest department store chain in Korea and I recently started private classes with a celebrity who is the CEO of the School of Life Korea. She is not only introducing me to others in her social circle but, also, the School of Life and Magic Pond have the same objective, namely, helping people with self-development, empowerment, and enlightenment.

“Misery is not happening just to make us drown in misery, but to teach us that something is wrong. It is through experiencing misery consciously that we discover our real Self, for example. Every time we stray off ‘our’ path we experience disappointment, failure, pain, and misery. If we don’t see the cause we just suffer and will not develop. However, if we have the courage to be bluntly honest with ourselves and see what causes our misery, we come closer and closer to our core Self.”

Another very important element of Yoga philosophy in daily life practice is the idea that misery is not happening just to make us drown in misery, but to teach us that something is wrong. It is through experiencing misery consciously that we discover our real Self, for example. Every time we stray off "our" path we experience disappointment, failure, pain, and misery. If we don't see the cause we just suffer and will not develop. However, if we have the courage to be bluntly honest with ourselves and see what causes our misery, we come closer and closer to our core Self. Yoga also teaches us that it is useless to blame outside factors as it is not constructive and helpful. Of course other people can do wrong, but karma takes care of that. We only look at ourselves and our part in the misery so that we can move on and grow and come closer to the goal of Self manifestation. So guilt, blame and regret are only emotions to tell that something is wrong, not to make us miserable. If we can see what is wrong and why, these emotions have fulfilled their purpose.

B: The practice of playfulness as a tool for personal growth was a recurring aspect in your classes. If you can imagine someone who has difficulty being playful, what might you suggest to them or ask them? How could playfulness be useful to them?

R: Everything is energy. When we play we are bursting with energy. As a result, we function better on all levels of consciousness. When we stop playing, and most adults do, our energy is blocked, our energy levels plummet and our spirit dies and we lose connection. Being playful stimulates energy circulation. Feeling enthusiasm, passion, happiness are all crucial for spiritual development. People who claim to be spiritual but do not show such qualities must not be trusted. Energy tells all. Of course it can be very difficult for an adult who has grown up learning to oppress everything they feel and experience to express themselves. Start by just being yourself when you are alone at home. Play music and dance; act funny with your pet; but also try to not be offended by what others say; go along with jokes people make instead of taking it personally. To be yourself, it is also important to surround yourself with likeminded people whom you can trust.

B: A lot of people aren’t always able to find a way to constructively process distressing obstacles and inner pain. We end up adopting habits that temporarily decrease our awareness of the pain, but which ultimately prolong and worsen the pain. This could be alcohol, drugs, overeating, internet addiction, or any habit that is used to pacify our pain but which doesn’t really resolve the wound at its root. Not that those things are inherently bad, but if they become excessive then perhaps we could benefit from looking at them. If one decides that they would like to let go of a detrimental habit, but they don’t know what to do about it, how might you suggest they begin that healing process?

R: The key to rid ourselves of harmful behavior is to start undergoing it consciously. If you harm yourself with alcohol or drugs, from now on try to first of all enjoy the substance more consciously, but more importantly undergo the harmful effects of this behavior consciously. The power in becoming conscious is that every human being automatically will want to get rid of something as soon as they become conscious of its harmfulness. Of course this is not easy and it can sometimes take many years to get rid of an addiction or other harmful behavior. However, from the moment you undergo it consciously you start to see an up-going line in development. You slowly develop control, leading to less [of the behavior] and eventually to its end. Of course, it can help to find professional support if you feel you can't handle it on your own.

B: Is there a website or link you'd like to give people to contact you or find your work?

We have a website but it is not really active: www.magicpond.co.kr (English link here)
People can contact me at yoga@magicpond.co.kr
We are also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/yogainseoul/

Very important: if you are looking for change in your life you must look for a very systematical approach. If you look at most yoga classes around the world they do not offer that. A professional course that is systematic in its build up is a very powerful way to take control and develop.

Ron teaches two five-month yoga courses every year in Seoul, South Korea. The next one begins in August 2018. Before each course begins, he also offers some free introductory classes about this approach to yoga. If you are in South Korea and curious, I highly recommend checking it out! I loved the course so much that I moved to South Korea a second time so that I could take the advanced course. I found it extremely practical, accessible, and downright life-changing. Really! Check out Magic Pond's site or Facebook page for details.

On my blog, you can find more writings on art and alchemical thinking, interviews about creativity, psychologically-oriented reflections on tarot, and more. You can check out past posts in the categorized list below.

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Art
- Dec 19, 2016 Wakey Wakey, Inner Kiddo
- Dec 28, 2016 How to Make Magical Oranges
- Aug 17, 2017 Put the Potatoes on Your Face
- Sep 14, 2017 Art is a Portal
- Dec 1, 2017 Why the Tutu?
- Apr 3, 2018 Public Alchemy: Notes on Street Performance
- Jun 22, 2018 The Freedom and Fear of Being Yourself (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Jul 2, 2018 About the Folks Who Think You Stink (Notes on Performance and Life)
Interviews
- Feb 21, 2018 Artist Interview: Samantha Blumenfeld
- Mar 1, 2018 Artist Interview: Lawrence Blackman
- Apr 23, 2018 Interview: Yogi Ron Katwijk
- Jun 4, 2018 Artist Interview: Sally Nicholson
- Jul 18, 2018 Artist Interview: Kayle Karbowski
Magical Thinking
- Dec 28, 2016 How to Make Magical Oranges
- Jan 15, 2017 Following Fear
- Feb 19, 2017 Why Does Heartache Happen?
- Jul 6, 2017 Nerves and Tutus
- Aug 7, 2017 Three Reasons to Destroy Yourself (Or Not)
- Sep 14, 2017 Art is a Portal
- Dec 1, 2017 Why the Tutu?
- Jan 5, 2018 Chaos' Playground: Finding Gold in the Shitstorm
- Apr 3, 2018 Public Alchemy: Notes on Street Performance
- Apr 16, 2018 Questions for Limitations
- Jun 22, 2018 The Freedom and Fear of Being Yourself (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Jul 2, 2018 About the Folks Who Think You Stink (Notes on Performance and Life)
- Aug 23, 2018 Melting a Snowball of Misery
- Jun 21, 2019 White Peacocks, Constipation, and Emotional Liberation
- Aug 5, 2019 Celebrating Your Misery
- Dec 4, 2020 The Healing Voice: Wounds, Addiction, and Purgation
- May 18, 2023 Magick is a Sentient Entity: Using the Imagination to Co-Create with Magick
- Jun 21, 2023 Magick for Reshaping Life and Transmuting Trauma
Tarot
- Aug 26, 2017 Tarot as a Tool for Reality Construction
- Feb 28, 2018 Today's Tarot: The World is in the Seed
- Jun 27, 2019 Today's Tarot: Snot, Beauty, and Tea for Pain
- Aug 12, 2019 Today's Tarot: The Moon of Self-Loathing
- Aug 13, 2019 Today's Tarot: The Golden Devils Inside You
- Aug 18, 2019 Today's Tarot: Shifting Pain by Surrendering to It
- Aug 25, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #1: Why is the Present Moment So Much All the Time?
- Sep 3, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #2: Do abusers know they're being abusive, or is that just their sense of reality?
- Sep 25, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #3: Why can't I find more hours in a day?
- Oct 11, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #4: How long will it be until I have a new job?
- Oct 24, 2019 TAROT QUESTION #5: Why does my skin crawl with wonder and fascination as such important relationships in my life are connected by the eyes?